Spot on!

[whotheheckami]

I would like to say that I'm pleased and relieved at the result of this trial. To me the individual's issues about the legality of the war in Iraq are utterly irrelevant to the case. He refused to carry out lawful orders from his superior officers - end of debate. He is more than welcome to have personal feelings about the conflict and I admire him for taking such a strong moral stance. However, he was a volunteer memeber of a fighting force and is being justifiably punished for disobeying orders.

Forgive my cynicism, but I only hope his moral purity continues to the point where he donates any profits from subsequent book deals to charity.

Comments

[andrewducker]

To me the individual's issues about the legality of the war in Iraq are utterly irrelevant to the case. He refused to carry out lawful orders from his superior officers - end of debate.

Surely that sentence contains a contradiction - he didn't carry out the orders because he believed they weren't legal?

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

The war in Iraq is legal for current values of legal. The medic in question therefore disobeyed a legal order. Do not pass go, do not collect £200 (unless he's getting money from other sources) go direct to jail.

[andrewducker]

The war in Iraq is legal for current values of legal.

Well, they've clearly found that this is the case, as part of this court case. But various international lawyers have argued that it's not. Who's a soldier to believe?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

He would have been committing a crime by obeying an illegal order to be part of the occupation of Iraq.

Of course, he was highly unlikely to be prosecuted for committing that crime - we pay only lip-service to the notion that members of the British armed forces are obliged to refuse illegal orders - but I admire his backbone in refusing.

(Please ignore previous comment: accidentally posted.)

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

Yes he would if the occupation of Iraq was illegal. However, when he refused the order the occupation was not illegal.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

However, when he refused the order the occupation was not illegal.

That's dubious, actually: the invasion/occupation of Iraq was undoubtedly illegal, and the military rule of Iraq is being enforced without regard for law. Whether a crime "becomes legal" is an interesting technical point.

However, it is certain that no lower court would venture to declare the occupation illegal: Kendall-Smith can of course appeal upwards.

Further thoughts on the matter in my journal.

[azekeil.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but if you are part of an army whose controlling government's policies you disagree with, then you deserve everything you've asked for. You should quit.

[gerald_duck]

So if the army wants to reduce its pension buren, it should just order all the troops to do something illegal so they all quit?

[azekeil.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, but then there might be an outcry and a public investigation etc, which could backfire.

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

Something that this individual did not do. Although the terms of his engagement allow him to give 3 months notice. He reeks to be of a cause-seeking scum bag. Not that I'm prejudiced in anyway ;@)

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

So you would have acquitted concentration camp guards who were following lawful (in their country) orders?

And do you support the new law going through parliament at the moment that would increase the penalty for such offenses to life imprisonment?

This all seems to be a recipe for ensuring that nobody volunteers for the army or TA ever again.

[gerald_duck]

"Just think: war breaks out, and nobody turns up."

[azekeil.livejournal.com]

Hm. Can anyone say conscription?

[gerald_duck]

Can anyone say "Vietnam"?

[abigail-42.livejournal.com]

<
This all seems to be a recipe for ensuring that nobody volunteers for the army or TA ever again.>

Sounds like a good idea to me ;-)

[sarah-mum.livejournal.com]

Asolutely - let's get that one in action asafp.

Although, then we'ld have all the folks woh would have volunteered out in the real world, which might not be such a good thing. Our Armed Forces do tend to act a 'care in the community' for a certain violently inclined section of the populace.

[abigail-42.livejournal.com]

Hmm, good point.
We'd have to have some sort of management "team building" camp for them to run for junior managers who think they are God's gift!

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

...and we might even have to find real jobs for parasitic Royal Princes!

[abigail-42.livejournal.com]

Nah - just line them up against the wall and shoot them. ;-)

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

Whether I acquitted or not would depend on the circumstances and the conflict. However, if you accept a concentration camp as being somewhere where civilans are detained in times of conflict then there may not be a war crime being committed. Britain ran a number of concentration camps for various classes of civilians during the second world war. They were not "death camps" and to the best of my knwledge no-one was accused of war crimes.

The whole of Queen's Regulations are long overdue a major overhaul, but it is an area that I am woefully oout of date with and no longer have a copy of QRs or the Manual of Air Force Law to refer to. Consequently, I am surprised that the penalty for disobeying a lawful order is not already life imprisonment.

I think it will have very little impact on those who are likely to volunteer to serve

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

This all seems to be a recipe for ensuring that nobody volunteers for the army or TA ever again.

AFAIK, no member of the Territorial Army who really didn't want to go was made to - in fact, because of the rather clever way the system works, most people that went were probably volunteers but no official stats are kept - SNCOs will know everyones personal preferences and can pass that up the chain. Everyone is treated as a compulsory call up as it causes less trouble with partners/employers etc and if you really don't want to go you can just deliberately flunk the fitness tests.

[gerald_duck]

Radio 4 interviewed his solicitor. This guy knew he was going to jail for his actions, because there was no real prospect of a low court agreeing with his contention that the war wasn't legal. Even so, he's fighting this as a matter of principle. Also, he won't quit the army willingly, because he wishes to establish that it was illegal for them to give him that order, and because he does still believe in the defence of the realm.

But now he can appeal up the line. Even then, I doubt any court is going to admit the illegality of the war in Iraq, but it would be wonderful if it did, and I applaud him for giving the courts the opportunity to try the case.

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

As an ex-member of the armed forces (Royal Signals, Territorial Army) I'm glad he's been found guilty - the length of the sentence was inevitable. The idea that someone who is both an officer and a member of medical staff (I.e. non-combatant) would refuse to serve on Op Telic well after the initial invasion is quite shocking.

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

I'm not shocked because he sounds like a typical military medic and they all seem to be fairly wierd. I can only imagine what his "period of "de-militarisation"" at Colchester will be like for him.

But more importantly, how did a Jimmy find my journal? ;@)

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

I'm not shocked because he sounds like a typical military medic and they all seem to be fairly wierd.

Try the fighter pilots. They really are like some of the sterotypes and most of them think they're God. (To be fair, it's a requirement for the job. If you're sane and normal, you'd not want to do it.)

I can only imagine what his "period of "de-militarisation"" at Colchester will be like for him.

Pretty hellish. 2 weeks of it is bad enough during Phase 1 training, 8 months of it is quite a harsh punishment. (It's nowhere near as easy as a civilian jail, that's for sure) I'm guessing for those being discharged they ease off towards the end or something and give them skills that will be useful for getting a job in 2 Civ Div.

But more importantly, how did a Jimmy find my journal?

I have no idea what a "Jimmy" is, unless you're scottish, but I found it from gerald_duck's friends page. :-)

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

Ah, I just read your profile. You'll know exactly what I mean about some of the fighter pilots...

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

I would never have made it as a fighter pilot. My eyes were brown and so I would not have been accepted into the blue-eyed master-race ;@)

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

I wanted to fly mud shifters when I was about 16-17, but the RAF recruiter was a twat and put me off even applying. They only wanted to recruit for fast jet pilots back then, and from what he said the bomber and transport pilots were just fighter pilot rejects. (Not sure how true that was/is)

Then I wanted to join the Navy as a submariner, (Nice and safe... not) then I tried to join the Army as a Territorial Army Infantry Officer, (The role with the highest casualty rate when the shooting starts) then I *finally* joined the TA in the Royal Signals, at which point everything fell apart as I figured out the reason I kept wanting to do stupidly dangerous military stuff. :-)

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

For some reason the RAF refer to members of the RCS as Jimmys - its supposed to be a nickname for the Mercury badge

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

Colchester is (or was) a pretty hellish regime and far worse than any civilian prison. The officer concerned will have been stripped of his commission before arriing there and will have the rank of aircraftsman. I was shown around the centre many years ago because the job I was doing entailed sending quite few miscreants there. It was not nice!

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

I've worked with people who have spent 28 days inside and I've seen documentaries on it - to be honest, the documentaries don't do it justice in terms of how soul-destroying it must be. I think it's impssible for a civilian to appreciate what military discipline can really be like.

Just being stripped of his rank will be pretty bad - I'm guessing it's like the Army and he'll ahve gone in at that rank being Professionally Qualified so won't be used to even being a lower officer rank. (Can't remember RAF ranks, but I remember that Flt.Lt. is like an Army Captain, you get a fair bit of respect if no real actual command responsibility when you've gone in as a PQO)

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

You are right with your equivalent ranks and what he would have been responsible for. You're also spot on when yhou say that the MCTC is hell on earth

[landsmand.livejournal.com]

Bang on. He has an absolute responsibility to refuse to carry out an order which is illegal under the law of armed conflict, training on which is both mandatory and annual in all three services. Note also that he can not usually be ordered to break the law of either his own jurisdiction or one in which he is serving and there is no status of forces agreement.

Having a political objection to the course of action his government has taken is a different animal altogether. He should have resigned his commission. He's going to have an absolutely wonderful time at MCTC - the 8 months was probably specifically chosen so he can go to Colchester, rather than a civilian nick.

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

8 months at the MCTC...to quote Windsor Davies, "How sad. Never mind!" ;@)